Matt Weitzel: 0:00

This episode of the GSE Podcast is brought to you by Fort Brand, not your everyday GSE provider. We go beyond belt loaders and bag tractors, offering towbarless pushbacks, de-icers, and airport maintenance equipment, all available on demand across North America and the UK. Whether you need electric units to support your ESG goals or traditional equipment for today's rant, Fort Brand delivers flexible leasing with the option of full-service maintenance to keep your fleet at peak performance. When you partner with Fort Brand, you get more than equipment. You get expertise, reliability, and a commitment to keeping your operation running smoothly. Visit Fortbrand.com to learn more. This is Christian Eitner. This is Kyle Brunner. This is Calder War. This is Ronan Malahan, and you are listening to the GSE podcast. All right. Well, welcome to the GSE Podcast. I'm Matt Weitzel, and today I am joined by Allen Energy. So I have Todd Allen and Devin Sinclair. And they are both joining me at the Orlando office today, the new, the new podcast studio that I'm setting up that's not quite there yet, but we're we at least have a room, right? And that's the most that's the that's the start of a podcast studio. So we're gonna get there, and today we're we're videoing this one. So hopefully that works out. So, Todd, how's it going? Now you live in Orlando, right?

Todd Allen: 1:37

Or somewhere near I live I live southwest Orlando in Windermere, about half hour from here, and been living here for about 25 years. Oh wow. So what brought you to the Orlando area? It was to get into the battery business. Oh, really? I was I was graduating from business school, and there was a little company owned by owned by a couple guys in Missouri who wanted to sell it, and it was two field techs that went around and fixed battery, you know, industrial batteries and chargers for forklifts. Oh and I wouldn't say that was my start if we want to go really far back. When I was in undergrad, we I had a job at a battery company welding cables and asset adjustments and load tests. And I I worked for uh also worked for a company that did consulting for international battery factories. So I got a start a long time ago.

Matt Weitzel: 2:33

So you've been in the battery industry for how many years then? Well, or at least let's not go let's not let's not put a number to it.

Todd Allen: 2:41

So so a long time since 25 years in Orlando. Okay. Uh in the battery business, starting out doing material handling, forklifts. Okay. And then I'd say about 20 years in GSE.

Matt Weitzel: 2:54

Wow. Nice. Okay. And then uh how did Allen Energy uh get its start? So when did you actually found it?

Todd Allen: 3:02

I was founded in in 2000 when I moved to Orlando.

Matt Weitzel: 3:07

Okay.

Todd Allen: 3:07

I end it eventually sold that business, the material handling business, just to focus on GSE. And in the beginning it was me and one assistant, and then it's since grown from there.

Matt Weitzel: 3:22

So why GSE? Like what made you move away from material handling and and come to our beautiful industry of GSE?

Todd Allen: 3:31

So while we were doing material handling, we had dabbled into GSE from the very beginning. I mean, we when when we were the industry was starting to electrify, we were very much a part of that, starting with American Airlines at the time Continental. And we became, you know, the industry experts at the time. Now there's a lot more players, but that was just like a side business kind of that we got pulled into out of a very strange series of relationships, and then it became part of our business. And when I sold the material handling part, it was an easy transition into GSE.

Matt Weitzel: 4:12

Yeah, for sure. And then Devin, how did you get your start in GSE? I have no idea. No, we all want to know. Everybody's been asking me, and I'm like, dude, I don't worry, I'm gonna ask him on the podcast.

Devin Sinclair: 4:25

I, as you know, I have a I have a leasing background. Uh yes. And I actually did not start in ground support equipment. I started with a company called Balboa Capital. We leased, you name it, and I leased farm tractors to farmers and dental chairs to dentists. But from there I found some a common background with the current ownership of Mercury, and we kicked it off the the day we met. I mean, I just ended up working for his team. Didn't know if I was ever gonna like this industry. I didn't even know what I was going to sell. I thought I was going to sell jet bridges. Oh, yeah, exactly. Because that's what you know, right? That's all I really knew. I didn't understand that there was a whole bunch of equipment crawling around the airport underneath the wing of the aircraft. But no, I I fell in love with it, and you know, I'm still still here today. Like I always say, once you go, once you go to GSE, you can never really leave.

Matt Weitzel: 5:13

That's very true. That's and uh we talk about that a lot on the podcast is something that comes up on I guess about every other podcast is like people try to leave, but they can't.

Todd Allen: 5:21

I'll add that when I sold the business and was gonna work on GSE, that was gonna be a one or two year project.

Matt Weitzel: 5:28

Yeah, yeah, exactly. See, that's 20 years later.

Devin Sinclair: 5:31

20 years later, you're still here, you can't leave. No, I mean there's there's something that there's something that that that just draws you in. And I I think the the key piece of it is the people, right? And the relationships that we all have, the tight little network that we have. And you know, one of my favorite things is going to the GSE expo, not so much to go grab all the business that's out there, it's just so that I can see everybody because we've got a great relationship. I mean, you can edit this out if you want, but there was a point in time where you and I were competitors, but uh, you know, I still always looked at at your team as as friends, and there's something that's very valuable to that, and I appreciate it. So yeah, like I said, here I am, and I I don't think I don't think I'm ever leaving.

Matt Weitzel: 6:15

That's good. I I never leaving. Yeah, that yeah, that's right. Well, you know, there's this rumor going around the industry. I don't know if you've heard it or not, but the reason that Devin left was because he knew he wouldn't be able to make it on the podcast unless he went to another company. So there's some truth to that. There is there's a lot of truth to that. I keep being told that, but but anyway, so uh but we're here to talk today about something that's very important, and I'm so glad that you all you know decided to come on the podcast because obviously electrification is top of mind right now. A lot of people are obviously talking about it. We recently were awarded, you know, Fort Brand was awarded T6. We're going in as almost all electric, and then eventually it will be all electric. So I think that's if we're taking a nod from that, that's kind of the way the industry is moving. And you all supply batteries and and chargers to the industry.

Devin Sinclair: 7:07

Yeah, what what a coincidence.

Matt Weitzel: 7:09

Right. I know. And so anyway, so it's it's really I'm glad that you're here. And let's start, let's start talking about what Allen Energy does, what you bring to the table. What kind of battery chemistries are you using right now?

Devin Sinclair: 7:21

Uh I'll start. We do, you know, historically, Allen Energy has done a ton of lead acid. And as the industry has shifted and product demand has shifted to lithium, we've brought on a new supplier whose name is Calibri. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this know who Calibri is. But Calibri offers an NMC chemistry battery, which is nickel, magnesium, cobalt. You might have to edit that out if I got that wrong, but I think I got it right. Maybe manganese, but it's all right.

Matt Weitzel: 7:56

Tomato tomato. Okay, got it. I think you nailed it, Devin. I think I did. Yeah, yeah, you really did. I'm proud of him.

Devin Sinclair: 8:02

That's good. But no, Todd, I'll let you add on to that.

Todd Allen: 8:06

Well, and we also can offer iron phosphate. Even in our our mobile charging cart, we use an NCA battery. It's a Tesla battery. So we are very open to all the chemistries. They have you know some pros and cons, but we try to use primarily the safest battery, and then chemistry would be you know for particular applications.

Matt Weitzel: 8:32

So there's still air, I mean, as much as people push lithium, there's still a lot of people using lead acid, right? I mean, that is that is still I think is that still the preferred? I mean, in in like the airline industry, especially with airlines, are they using lead acid?

Todd Allen: 8:48

Well, overwhelmingly, the the fleet of batteries is lead acid. It's 90 plus percent. But in terms of new purchases, it's still more lead acid because you're just replacing it's it's really hard to start integrating a lithium into a large fleet of lead acid. It takes time. But I think we're approaching in a 50% kind of range of as the larger carriers are converting to lithium, we're crossing over to where it's going to be more lithium than lead, industry-wide, and then just industrial battery-wise, lead acid isn't going away. In fact, all the forecasts show lead acid will just remain rather constant, and the growth in battery business will be in different chemistries. Yeah.

Devin Sinclair: 9:37

I think it's fair to say that this industry is a little bit afraid of change, but I think that there are some key players and a lot of educated people that are coming to the table with real data about lithium now, and people are gaining a better understanding of it and trusting that making the switch could be beneficial to their operation. So I would say it's probably a very slow transition, but we are seeing it happen and we can see it happen in our numbers.

Matt Weitzel: 10:10

Yeah. And then with chargers, so you all offer chargers as well. So what what kind of charge, like what kind of chargers are you offering to the industry?

Devin Sinclair: 10:20

We offer ACT chargers, advanced charging technologies. ACT offers single port GSE charger rated for outdoor use as well as indoor chargers as well. They offer a range of options for both the AC input as well as the AC output. Or sorry, is it DC output? Yeah, I got that one wrong again, too. But they are also offering an option now for dual port chargers, which is a very big move for them in this industry because that's what a lot of the carriers want. So we've had a lot of traction with ACT chargers because they've helped us with putting a lot of effort and a lot of resources towards building something that is actually applicable to the ground support equipment space, as to where their primary focus in the past was in material handling. So now that we've got products that this industry wants and needs, we've been gaining a lot more traction selling ACT chargers.

Todd Allen: 11:20

Gotcha. And we also sell other brands, Enercys being one of them, where it's a more conventional charger, still a smart charger. They also offer various chargers for different applications. So we continue to sell multiple brands based on the application.

Matt Weitzel: 11:37

So what do you think about gate charging?

Todd Allen: 11:40

We understand the need for gate charging because there's an infrastructure issue. And so the gates have power. But with with everything, when we're trying to use workaround solutions for the lack of infrastructure, you know, it's great because it's a solution. It's not the best or end solution, but it is a good solution when there isn't anything else. It's just, you know, you're relying on uh an aircraft and not being there, uh ample power space. So there there are some issues that have to be overcome. And I think that's why you don't see every airport relying on it, but it is an absolutely great option when you don't have another one.

Matt Weitzel: 12:23

Yeah, for sure. And is that something you all offer?

Todd Allen: 12:26

Is to sure we we offer a gate power sharing device as well as we have chargers that operate directly off of 200 volt, 400 hertz power. So we don't need to do any sort of special conversion. We're kind of ready to go. In fact, our our mobile cart maybe we'll have time to talk about that. But one of the power supplies that you can use to charge the battery that's on board is you know, gate power, 400 hertz gate power.

Matt Weitzel: 13:00

Yeah, I mean let's let's dive right in. So you you have a you have a mobile charging solution? We do.

Devin Sinclair: 13:06

We call it the the quanticart. We've got several names for it. The name that you will see on the side of the piece of equipment is the quanticart, but the uh the uncoined name is the juice box. Oh, I like the juice box. The juice box, yeah.

Matt Weitzel: 13:21

The quanticart sounds like something out of a Marvel movie, and the juice box sounds like something out of my lunch in elementary school.

Devin Sinclair: 13:28

So yes, exactly. It's a little more attractive, right? Tastes a little bit better. But no, our our our quanticart is it's a very customizable piece of equipment that can be used in several different applications. We were actually showcasing one at the GSE Expo, and we got a lot more traction than we anticipated getting on it, and now we are picking and choosing the customers that we want to you know enter this new chapter of our business with. So, Todd, I'll let you get a little bit more into the specs just because you can roll up your tongue a little bit better than I can. That sounds exciting.

Matt Weitzel: 14:08

I know, dude, it's the best. That's what that's what our listeners want.

Todd Allen: 14:11

Thanks, Stefan. Well, I will say that it is just like gate charging. We're still talking about workaround solutions. We would much rather have chargers sitting there where where tractors are and you can plug in. But given that there isn't chargers everywhere that are easily available, it makes sense to have a device that you can take out to the equipment instead of having the equipment go have find a charger that may or may not exist. So the good thing about our cart, one, is it's fully electric, it has a battery on board that supplies all the power for charging. And we can do a high voltage battery or a low voltage battery. We can have uh 480 volt input to 40 volt three phase or single phase 400 hertz. We could use an EV charger. Whatever it is that you have will be able to charge the battery, we'll be able to even bypass the battery and charge and use that power to go directly to the chargers with you need two ports, you need four ports. The good thing about uh being mobile is that it's small, you can take it anywhere, and you can daisy chain it. We're basically using a baggage card so that you can have one, two, four, as many as you want to take out to wherever you need. So it's the the flexibility in terms of the power input, the amount of power you need to charge batteries, the ability to be small enough and mobile to take it somewhere, and then the outputs completely flexible in terms of connectors, power, current, and what we can charge. We can charge a lead acid, we can charge any chemistry, we can do a identifier type charging or BMS charging, which would be our preference.

Devin Sinclair: 16:06

And being the uh sales and the director of sales and marketing, I've got to throw in too that as you saw at the GSE expo, we can wrap it with some pretty cool designs.

Matt Weitzel: 16:16

Oh, yeah, well, that's even more important. That's the best part about it, right?

Devin Sinclair: 16:19

Although I don't think anybody's gonna want me to design what their quant looks like. I'm just saying we can do it. You can do it.

Matt Weitzel: 16:26

Yeah. Yeah. So what does it look like if I if I'm a customer and I'm hearing this podcast and and I'm interested in that solution? Where can I see one? Are you all gonna have demos? I know you're kind of picking and choosing the customers because of the the the feedback that you got at the GSE expo, but what does that look like?

Todd Allen: 16:42

Yeah, the quantity of orders that we had to deny at the show was quite it was hard, it's hard to say no to an order. Yeah, I know, right? But we did we did agree to an order. First one will be at JFK.

Devin Sinclair: 16:57

Oh, wow. Okay. We have been asked to send one to Honolulu, but we just don't know if Honolulu is the best spot for the first Guanic art. Uh-huh. Um, although I would love to go check on the Yeah, exactly.

Todd Allen: 17:11

Maybe you could stay for a couple months and shortage of Valent Energy employees who have volunteered to be like a resident engineer in Honolulu. But we had people in Europe saying that we were ready to buy them right now. We're like, hmm, let's put one at JFK first. Yeah.

Matt Weitzel: 17:27

Yeah. Just make sure, yeah. Get get it all field tested where where you can, and then I guess this is kind of goes into something I wanted to talk about is you know, what does your support network look like at Allen Energy?

Devin Sinclair: 17:40

Our suppliers offer a lot of support for us, and our suppliers have dealer networks across all of North America. So oftentimes we can lean on their support networks for technical support or just getting somebody out to an airport. Like I said, they've not only are they across North America, but they've got locations right around the airports, which makes that a lot more convenient. Recently, as you know, demand has shifted towards lithium, we've found it very important to hire engineers and technicians in-house that can also travel across North America to assist with the very little issues that lithium has. We've strategically located people across the United States. All of us work from home, which, you know, pros and cons to that. But one of the pros is that we are strategically spread out across the United States so that if we do have to respond to a service call, we can be there as efficiently as possible. Okay.

Todd Allen: 18:39

And then Devin's personal service territory is the state of California. Yeah. He has been doing real service calls on lithium batteries. Very impressive.

Matt Weitzel: 18:50

Really?

Todd Allen: 18:50

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I said. Really?

Devin Sinclair: 18:53

Yeah, exactly. I didn't know. I am a firm believer that the best way to learn something is to get thrown in into the fire, get thrown into the deep end because it's either sink or swim. That's right. Um, so I have purposely been raising my hand when there is something close to me that I can go put my attention on, not because I want to get shocked by a battery and and file a workers' comp claim. And not because he has a new baby at home.

Matt Weitzel: 19:20

It has nothing to do with any of those things.

Devin Sinclair: 19:22

Has nothing to be with nothing to do with me wanting to be out of the house. No, it really is because I am learning 10 new things every day. And it is because I'm putting myself in these situations where I'm I'm forced to learn. Todd's gonna laugh at this, but there's been situations where I've gotten very frustrated, frustrated with myself because I couldn't figure these issues out when, you know, I probably have no reason for for doing that because it's not easy stuff. But, you know, I at the end of the day, the frustration turns into me, you know, learning a lot about the products that we sell. And it's been very helpful helpful for me getting the ball rolling in this position.

Todd Allen: 20:02

I should I should add up the years of experience in GSC we have, our technical knowledge, including our our service coordinators. You could you could call any of our or our sales coordinators, any of our inside admin can answer tech answer technical questions because they've been doing this for so long.

Matt Weitzel: 20:22

That's amazing. That's good. Yeah, I mean, you've been in business since 2000. So I mean, that that makes a lot of sense. And you keep a good crew around and they're able to help out. And then what how does how does telematics kind of work in inside the batteries? Does that help out with uh service and support as well? Is that something that you offer?

Todd Allen: 20:41

Yeah, so frequently, because all of our all of our equipment comes with telematics. So so many times there's something that is not working. And it may or be it may be something significant, but no mostly it's very insignificant, just requires a switch, a program change, firmware update, something, and we can go online through the cloud, pull up that piece of equipment, identify what the issue is, and possibly just fix it right there before we have to then fly to a destination and take a lot of time with equipment being out of service. So that has been extremely helpful. Our devices interface with some of the popular telematic systems, and then we have you know our own user interfaces for different products.

Devin Sinclair: 21:38

Yeah, and believe it or not, a lot of the times there's an issue with a battery. All we have to do is tell the customer to go plug it into a charger so we can tell remotely that the battery is at a low state of charge, and all they really need to do is go plug that thing in. But I understand it's very hard to plug a minute to a charger.

Matt Weitzel: 21:59

Well, it's it's all because of infrastructure. If the infrastructure was there, they wouldn't have as many problems.

Todd Allen: 22:04

Well, I think I could go by any major airport and I would find completely discharged batteries in a tractor sitting right next to a charger unplugged.

Matt Weitzel: 22:18

Yeah. I'd say that's probably the case. Yeah. So what what does that look like as far as so you know, with lithium batteries, I guess you should never let them get below 20%, and I guess they're optimal up to 80%. Is that is that true? So kind of talk to me about that. You you've been in the business for a long time, so you're a good person to ask.

Todd Allen: 22:39

Yeah, so on a on a lead-acid battery, the maximum depth of discharge would be 80% or state minimum state of charge 20%. And all of the existing controllers have an algorithm to prevent batteries from being discharged past that. They don't work. That's why we have dead batteries. Lithium with the BMS, it protects the battery it protects the battery. So the battery protects itself against an over-discharge, an overcharge. We we have a lot of margin built in between what we call zero and what we call 100. So we will allow the battery to go down close to zero and all the way to 100, even though there's a lot of space, you know, real space on either side. If you want to maximize the life of the battery, yeah, you're operating in that that middle state of charge, 20 to 80, would be a good target.

Matt Weitzel: 23:33

All right. And then I just thought of this, and so I'm gonna ask you. So we we I think I I mentioned earlier that you know, with this big T6 project going on, so we announced it on LinkedIn. And we had a person on LinkedIn comment, well, it'll be interesting to see how all this electric equipment holds up in the cold. So something of that nature. So can you talk to that question? Like how how will all this electric equipment that we have, you know, hold up in the cold? And then do your batteries have some kind of system where they will warm themselves up to if they get too cold, all that kind of stuff. So every battery we ship has heaters built in.

Todd Allen: 24:16

Okay. Not just a wrap around the battery, they're internal to the batteries, so all the cells maintain a common temperature. Even on the juice box, we literally have a essentially like a radiator style cooling and heating system so that this the cells are always at the same temperature that maximizes life and performance. But in the cold, if the battery is not being used and it starts to have a lower state, a lower temperature, the heaters kick on. Here's where the problem comes in. The heaters come on and they'll stay on and they consume power. And if you are not using the battery long for a long period of time, eventually, and it we're talking about days, uh, the battery will discharge down and it and will eventually turn off. Then the temperature continues to drop, then you have a dead battery that's cold, and lithium has a unique downside in terms of charging. You cannot charge a lithium battery below freezing. So if you have a a battery that is below 32 degrees Fahrenheit and it's uh it's dead, then you have to heat that battery back up one way or the other.

Matt Weitzel: 25:36

So maybe tow it into a place that's covered and and bring up the temperature naturally put it into a microwave.

Todd Allen: 25:43

And I've seen people use heaters, external heaters, to literally outside blow blowing hot air onto batteries. That tends to work. We also have the technology where you plug into the charger and the BMS says, give me just a little bit of power, and that's just enough to turn the heaters on, and then when the battery gets warm, then we'll we'll ask for more power and start charging the battery. That requires the charger to have the right protocol and and have the right firmware, but that technology is there. Again, if you're in the cold and you have lithium batteries, just plug them into the chargers. If they're at a decent state of charge, they will always be on, they'll always be hot, they'll always be ready to go. It's plugging into the charger would be the secret to everything.

Matt Weitzel: 26:39

Thank you for answering that question. So it just reminds me though, with the with the ACT chargers, that's who you're using, right? Do they also have telematics on them because you said the firmware has to be updated, all that kind of stuff? Can that be remotely done to update the chargers that you all have out in operation?

Devin Sinclair: 26:55

Yes, it can. ACT has proprietary software called ActView, which is something that can be purchased with the chargers. And that is essentially their telemetry that you can access remotely.

Todd Allen: 27:06

And it's actually the best telemetry I've seen on any charging system. You can one, you'll get GPS so you know exactly where it is, but also you know, you can look at historical data, you can see every piece of information about that charger when the last time something got plugged in, what got plugged in. What kind of charge happened? If it didn't charge, what was the fault? It'll even give you a live version of what the customer is seeing on the screen of the charger. So you're looking at that on your computer as he's looking at it, they're live on site, and you're looking at the same thing. It's very effective in terms of maintaining uptime on the equipment.

Matt Weitzel: 27:52

What kind of advancements do you see happening with batteries? I know that you know people talk about sodium. Is that is that right? Sodium batteries. What are you all looking at as far as like future state? I know obviously we we've gotten to the point where, you know, like you said, lithium is being used. What's kind of next out there that people are talking about?

Devin Sinclair: 28:13

This goes back to our industry specifically, is is fearful of change. And I think that lithium is still such a new idea for the GSE space that it's really hard to see that there is going to be another change on the on the horizon or in the near future. But you know, technology seems to change and be put out into the market more rapidly as time goes on. So I have heard myself a lot about sodium batteries. I've heard that our military actually is is using a handful of them in different applications. So I think the test cases are starting to starting to pop up, and you know, that could be a direction that that it does go in.

Todd Allen: 28:57

Yeah, we're constantly looking at whatever might be a viable technology for GSC. Sodium does seem to be what's next, although it's not it's not commercial be commercially viable right now. But it will be eventually, I think, if we're gonna just take our best guess.

Matt Weitzel: 29:15

Is it difficult like if I have a lead acid tractor to then convert that to a lithium because of the weight and things like that of that tractor? There's have to be additional engineering done.

Devin Sinclair: 29:26

I wouldn't say not necessarily additional engineering, but yes, you're right in the terms of the counterweight reduction that you have when you go into a lithium battery because lithium batteries are a lot more lightweight than the old style lead acid batteries. So, you know, when we are doing conversions from lead acid to lithium, one of the things that we do have to do is drop a counterweight, a piece of steel, into the tractor to get some of that weight back. But as far as the installation process, it's not a hard it's pretty straightforward.

Todd Allen: 30:00

pretty straightforward yeah nice and and if the if the tractor is older and the and the controller is not ready to take a can signal we can still adjust uh the parameters such that it's still it's still keeping the battery from being over discharged so the operator still sees a low state of charge still gets the alert still goes into creep mode and then eventually would shut off and then worst case it goes so long that the battery will shut off to protect itself.

Matt Weitzel: 30:33

Yeah I hadn't thought about the controller side that's something that you all can help out with as well.

Todd Allen: 30:37

Yeah we typically if we were to do a retrofit it from lead to lithium we're supplying steel and then we're supplying new parameters for the controller if the controller's old if it's if it's new and it can take a you know the can signal which really it's only looking for state of charge minimally we can offer as much information as the tractor wants but we're just giving it state of charge so that it then can have a correct uh setting on the meter and and then the operator knows when to plug it in.

Devin Sinclair: 31:09

Yeah and to your point that is one thing on the long list of things that we help all of our customers with and Allen Energy has seen a lot of the the issues and has had to come up with a lot of solutions for for situations just like that. And you know that's why our our customers call us because we've got decades now of experience just finding solutions for compatibility and transition into into new technology and yeah we're we're a a resource that people can can rely on.

Todd Allen: 31:45

Yeah so with new technology as you're mentioning what about high voltage charging Todd what do you think about what do you think about that I know that there's some some push in the industry to get that is that something that you see as a is a viable thing and then how how much further in the future are we thinking that's going to be well yeah I I feel like the question is not if but when you've seen some OEMs go 100% high voltage and have to come back to low voltage and you've seen uh some high voltage companies just really not succeed because we are living in an 80 volt world every charger installation is low voltage and to convert that to high voltage is a long term process. It's not just money it's it's a lot of of work and coordination and you've got lots of different companies out there with different technologies and we still haven't gotten the integration standardized so everybody's doing something a little bit different and makes it it makes it challenging. So I am one of those people who believes we're gonna go to high voltage eventually. Not next year it can't happen. It's not possible but five years like who knows who knows but it's gonna happen. And you see the technology on road vehicle side really starting to drive the technology into GSE. I mean there was I can't remember how many presentations I gave about the positive plate and a lead acid battery and like who who cares about that but now we have like a lot of really good high technology things to talk about. And it gets complicated but it's it's it's exciting for our industry to really be moving in a high tech direction and I think is the bottom line yes we're we're gonna go to high voltage. Is material handling already there or no they're still in a low voltage world too although the high voltage offers so many advantages in terms of density performance that and and the integration like if you own an electric car you might need an adapter but you're gonna be able to plug into any EV charger that you find. And it would be great if GSE could get to that point where any battery could plug into any charger and work.

Devin Sinclair: 34:13

Yeah at this recent GSE expo I think it was a it was a relevant conversation that was happening often I I know we had a couple of the OEMs come up to our booth asking how we could integrate with high voltage and outside of the GSE expo we're also talking to airports that are starting to ask questions about high voltage charging.

Todd Allen: 34:36

So it's a a conversation that is you can tell it's starting to happen more and more so I am really not trying to push the the juice box because we have limited production. However the standard configuration has an EV charger on it. So we know we know that high voltage EV charging is is already here and it's just going to continue to grow. And we've geared the product up in anticipation that hey if the industry does shift we've got a solution that's ready to go right and if you want actually we have a customer who wanted exclusively this cart for high voltage charging they bought this might have been a story for the end of the conversation but they bought something like 150 electric high voltage EVs and no chargers. Wow and they're like we need we we need about uh 50 of these next month and I'm like yeah okay yeah talk about no problem yeah exactly where where is that being like manufactured put together assembled whatever yeah right now it's in Dallas but at the at the show we had about 10 different people come up and offer to be our our manufacturer for that oh okay so we are evaluating we're we can still build them in small quantities and we do that in Dallas but we're evaluating like a high production real quality manufacturer that can handle high volume.

Matt Weitzel: 36:06

With the name like juice box that thing's just gonna fly off the shelves man I mean this wouldn't want a juice box. They that's what I mean everybody wants a juice box.

Todd Allen: 36:15

That's some good marketing over there with the wraps with the wrap Devin yeah he already brought the wrap all right so kind of last big topic here is autonomous.

Devin Sinclair: 36:29

So what do you think about our industry going to autonomous vehicles and how does Allen energy if at all fit into that I think it's still it's still got a ways to go but another you know it was another topic that was thrown around a lot at the GSE expo and a lot of the OEMs did have their concepts showcased and we had a conversation with somebody last night about how their their company is you know really starting to get into this world of technology and they're really focusing on entering that market so that they can give back to their shareholders what they're looking for. And I think that is entering this new stage of of autonomous vehicles. Again like I have said a couple times the industry is fearful of change and that is probably the biggest change that that we will ever see just pulling labor off of the airport and putting vehicles that can do the work for us. So I I think there's some politics that's probably going to slow it down as well. But to my point the technology is there and and people are investing heavily in it and I do think that it is the thing of the future.

Todd Allen: 37:41

And well as far as Allen Energy's part in that we offer I think the one component that's missing so far in autonomous vehicles is you still need a person to plug it in. So we offer a wireless charger so you have an autonomous vehicle you give it a location to go back and charge and it pulls up as soon as it gets close enough and now we have the technology it doesn't have to be perfect. You can get within six inches or so and it will automatically sense the vehicle make sure that it's safe and it'll start charging and it's all done automatically the there's communication to identify the the battery and we can charge any chemistry.

Matt Weitzel: 38:26

That's amazing so it's like your iPhone right you just like kind of put it on that thing and it just starts charging.

Devin Sinclair: 38:32

But you don't even put it on that thing right puts itself on that thing. Yeah. Because it'd be a little bit scary if you had GSE operators pulling up to wireless chargers because one they're expensive pieces of equipment and and you can't protect them with bollards and fences you have to get close. You've got to get you know within within a very short distance for for the power to actually exchange.

Matt Weitzel: 38:56

But that makes a lot of sense for you all to get involved in that because like you said if we're trying to cut out operators right I mean that's kind of that's that's a big deal. That's a big a big piece of it and you know with operators. Well they don't always plug it in.

Todd Allen: 39:10

As I've always I keep saying it over and over again plugging in your battery to a charger seems like such an obvious thing. My daughter doesn't know how to do it so I don't know why I expect rampers to do it. I think I think like a pushback's going back to the same place. Yeah it just went back to the same place and got charged every time it'd be perfect.

Devin Sinclair: 39:32

The technology also it does exist I I can't remember what airport it is but at the airport electrification conference on the east coast you know back what what was that?

Matt Weitzel: 39:43

Yeah I think that's where I met you.

Devin Sinclair: 39:44

Yeah like officially yeah somebody was talking about the wireless charging application that they were using for the buses that they use to move passengers around the airport. So it's there it's out on the airport it just hasn't really been brought into into GSE yet and I think the one thing that is holding it back is is it safe and is it going to be cost effective if we are running tugs into wireless chargers.

Matt Weitzel: 40:12

Yeah yeah but I mean like I like you said I mean autonomous is definitely coming just like high voltage right like we can't stop it it's coming I think that high voltage may beat autonomous but we'll see it it'll be a race to the to the long finish I think on that one.

Devin Sinclair: 40:26

But well you got to put sodium batteries in the race too.

Matt Weitzel: 40:30

Well uh yeah well I think I think that's gonna probably be the last in that race but that's just yeah maybe not but all right so now we're on to the the fun part of the podcast unless wait a minute hold on do we have anything else that I haven't asked you about or we haven't covered I want to make sure that you all get everything out that you want to talk about I I'd say we did have a product that got a lot of attention at the show we have a battery identifier that's been you know part of the integration and GSE's always been a challenge.

Todd Allen: 40:59

So we do have an identifier you can put on your battery that'll allow it to charge on multiple different brands of chargers.

Devin Sinclair: 41:06

Oh that that'll be nice solves a lot of problems for a lot of people that thing'll be flying off the shelves like the juice box what have we named that well that one actually does have a name that's very similar and one of the customers actually gave it to us and we've been running with it but we call it the Todd box. Oh the Tod box yeah I like it now we've got the juice box and the Todd box.

Matt Weitzel: 41:28

Okay so the Todd box it'll make it so that way you know no matter what the charger is it can talk to that battery and charge it. Exactly that cuts out a lot of them the headaches.

Todd Allen: 41:38

And and I think I think we want to work with the industry to try to standardize protocols pinouts contactors uh connectors just let's you know once and for all like I think we can work together I think that would be a great value to the industry. So we're gonna we're gonna as a company we'll be pushing that. Yep and we're currently working on projects that require universal identifier so and it's not easy it's not easy to talk to some of these chargers we have our competitors battery companies approaching us sometimes directly sometimes indirectly trying to buy the that identifier because they can't charge on every charger they don't know how and but if they buy that identifier they can so it's been interesting that's an amazing piece of technology I I know just coming from the manufacturing side when when a customer would try to be explain to me what charger they have and I got to make sure that it matches the battery we're giving them and all that kind of stuff.

Matt Weitzel: 42:38

I mean it's always always a task right so so I think that's a I mean definitely something the industry needed that's that's an amazing thing you got there.

Devin Sinclair: 42:46

It's been helpful to a lot of people and I think that there's still a lot of people that don't even know that it it exists. Well they will now yeah yeah absolutely here we here we are yeah but no I mean we had we had people walk up to us at the GSE expo not knowing that we had that device presenting the issues that they were having and here here we are waving our universal identifier around saying it really was just sitting on the desk we had we had people from other manufacturers who were exhibiting heard a story of a problem and said you know I think I have an answer for you and they'd walk them over to our booth and say I think this might help you. This is what you need yeah the Todd's out of the box now it's out there you know yeah and just for the record one of those projects is one of one of the things that I have thrown myself into into the fire with trying to implement onto equipment and how that's not going so well for Devin right now but he's gonna he's he's not gonna give up he's gonna figure it out I had a failure of a day but you know what if you have a bad day you wake up the next day and you just have a better one. You go again right you get looking forward to going back home so that I can just continue trying to I got a call from one of our engineers yesterday. Todd Devin called me 15 times today I actually I went back and counted how many times I called her on Monday because I didn't believe that it was 15 and it was actually only nine so I've got a little talking to Rebecca okay yeah she exaggerated a little bit just like you do.

Matt Weitzel: 44:27

We've got one thing in common. Exactly there you go all right so Devin you've been in the industry long enough to to have probably a decent GSE story so why don't we get your GSE story out there to the community. Oh man do you want a PG version or do you want a rated R version we're gonna go PG today. Okay yeah we're gonna go Lion King.

Devin Sinclair: 44:46

Lion King okay I I have a really cool story and it was a project that I I worked on at LAX years ago. It was just a really fascinating thing for me to see but it was the summit of America's event that the government was holding well you know our the the U.S. was holding it somewhere in LA couldn't tell you where it didn't really matter to me but we had presidents and officials from all over the world you know leaders of countries flying in and military aircrafts and presidential aircrafts air force one flew in and and was right in front of me but I was in a role where I was leasing equipment and we had leased tons of equipment to handle all of these all of these aircrafts that were were coming in with with presidents from all over the world and I went out there to to watch the whole thing why not you know our equipment was out there I had a reason to be at the airport so I you know I helped facilitate the whole thing and and for a whole day I just watched presidents roll in on their on their very luxurious jets and you know I watched C 17s come in with more equipment and uh it's one of those moments where you're like I never would have guessed this is what I would be doing today. You know I never thought I would be here. Yeah um but it was really cool and long story short the the coolest part of it was I got to see Air Force One come in you know as close as I could get to it. They only let you get within a certain certain range of it. But I got to watch the president come off the airplane and I got to look around me and see all the snipers on on the top of the roofs just protecting him as he walked across the airport and got into his armored armored black car and and drove away but the whole experience as a whole was something that has been very memorable to me because I I don't you know that's a once in a lifetime thing for sure I think yeah but it was it was cool and I I got to roam the airport and I'm walking under underneath the wings of yeah it's scary that they let me out. Yeah that's what I mean yeah exactly but no I got to walk under the wing of you know the president of Peru's airplane I I was a big fan of him yeah yeah I I had we we had Peruvian food last night so I really like exactly that's where you went there yeah yeah exactly no I I also got a tour of the president of Brazil's aircraft which was you know not as nice as Air Force One probably but it was a it was a pretty cool start I'm sorry to our Brazilian listeners just apologize right now. Yeah yeah I didn't leave any presence inside uh inside of the restroom there but but no it was it was a very memorable experience that is cool I I always choose that story because it's family friendly and uh yeah it's a rare GSE story where you actually get to talk about the president so yeah definitely that's impressive it's a story that doesn't get anybody in trouble so we'll stay away from the I like that I love those stories.

Matt Weitzel: 47:36

Todd do we have any stories that isn't going to get anybody in trouble?

Todd Allen: 47:39

I mean you kind of already kind of told your story a little bit I mean you had such a such a good fascinating beginning of your career but you know sometimes in GSE it's you think nothing can surprise you and then you get a call and you're like wow can't believe that happened a couple I mean I can remember early on this is going back 20 25 years ago new piece of electric equipment no one knew what it was battery gauge the fuel gauge said it was it was low and the guy went and he filled the battery up with gasoline no joke yeah he won the story for the day I'm sorry that that beats your president whatever you said. I had a we had a guy the battery wasn't charging because of an integration issue so he took a 400 amp hour battery plugged it into a dumb charger overnight put 2000 amp hours into it and literally melted if they came in the next morning it was melted it was a melted that's amazing lead and plastic. Wow just one more I'm gonna tell one more just this is not exciting okay but it's a it's a safety issue I got a call from a GSE department saying that some that this station is very unhappy with your batteries and I'm like okay didn't even know you had put batteries there so they're like yeah for the last four months every morning they have to go out and turn the batteries on and I'm like what like what and they're like oh yeah they turn off every night and they're very unhappy they think your batteries are terrible and I'm like we actually sent Rebecca out and uh turns out that uh the batteries were faulting at night and uh they were just resetting them but they had taken the identifier off of random not just anything consistent but random lead acid batteries put it on a lithium battery and that's a dangerous thing and over the course of every morning for four months no one said why are these batteries faulting yeah and instead of maybe calling somebody or some anything they just kept turning them back on. And lithium as excited as we are for that technology to come into the industry it's still a pretty volatile chemistry no matter what chemistry you're talking about. So safety safety's going to be as we the as we start having new technology not just batteries but new technology safety is going to be a huge issue.

Devin Sinclair: 50:14

Sorry that was the probably the most boring no I no I end of the end of the conversation but I think I mean it it had a very good point to it that you know as we do move forward we've got to be very focused on on the safety aspect of of what we are doing because to your point as well you can just slap a device on top of a battery that takes over completely takes over control of what is going on when you were charging it. And that's a very scary thing. So you know ways that we can eliminate having things oh yeah you said four.

Todd Allen: 50:50

Let's go four. No well keep going we've got another hour anyway so you said the record was 90 minutes. Yeah exactly yeah I don't even know how long it's been it was uh it was like a weekend evening and I'm getting texts from someone I don't know he's telling me I don't know anything about batteries or electric vehicles but I got to get this back in service trying to help him and I'm like hey let's let's just back away like you this is dangerous. And he's like and then a half hour later he's like I was able to break open the lock on the cover of the battery and I'm I just got shocked and there was a loud noise and smoke is coming and fortunately he didn't hurt himself that oh my god or the battery he he blew a contactor and a controller but we really do have to be careful.

Matt Weitzel: 51:39

You got to be careful yeah we we we interviewed or I mean I interviewed two guys from TechShron one had just retired and he was like the head of service and the other guy had been working on GSE for the last 35 years. I think it's 35 38 something crazy number and he's like you know it used to be people would call me and I could walk them you know through the stuff right over the phone. He goes now you know I'm like is it high voltage? It's like the first thing I ask because if it's high voltage I'm not walking you through that I have to come and and do that because it is so dangerous to make sure that these people aren't you know you can't mess with high voltage if you don't know what you're doing. Right. So I think again the safety of of making sure that you're you're good you're not just breaking into batteries and just doing whatever you want right so so anyway so no it's good stories. Devin you look like you have something to say.

Devin Sinclair: 52:28

No I I was just gonna start blurting out my rated R story anyways but we're gonna oh no we're gonna we're gonna leave that one on though I will definitely get somebody in trouble.

Matt Weitzel: 52:37

If I kept all my stories very anonymous you did you did yeah exactly well no I I appreciate you guys coming down today to to Orlando and meeting with me. It's been great learning about Allen Energy obviously I've I've I've known Devin for a little bit I've known you for a little bit longer I think and and I've heard good things about Allen Energy so I wanted to have you guys on the podcast and I think we learned a lot today and and got to learn about your products and about how you're just you're so busy you don't even know what to do as far as manufacturing these things. So so we'll have these manufacturers you know they're gonna listen to this they're gonna reach out to you and they're gonna ask if they can build it. So maybe you'll have a couple more people reach out to you.

Devin Sinclair: 53:13

Yeah and we want to thank you and Fort Brand for having us this has been an awesome experience for both of us like we had said earlier in the conversation I can finally check this off off my list. That's right. You know my my mom called me yesterday and she said well why are you traveling this time and I said mom I'm actually going to go be on a a GSE podcast and she said is it live? Can I watch it while you're doing it and I said mom no that's probably not a good idea.

Matt Weitzel: 53:38

One day we're gonna do a live one we have not done a live GSE podcast yet so but we got to figure out that technology and we'll do it.

Todd Allen: 53:46

Good I probably we need to we need to meet up at a at a GHI or expo or something that would be a perfect perfect place oh yeah that then that that is the last thing that we'll talk about.

Matt Weitzel: 53:57

So what shows are you attending coming up either the end of the year or beginning of next? Yeah.

Devin Sinclair: 54:04

Next week actually we've got the NBAA conference in Las Vegas and I can't say I have ever been to that conference before. I think that there will Are you going to walk it or exhibit? We're we're we're just walking it okay it's just myself and and Jesse. I figured it was a good time to go check it out. I've got some customers in the FBO space that they've they've got electric equipment at every single one of their locations across the United States and they've always got questions about charging capabilities and how they can advance their fleets and where they they should be spending their money on on technical advancements. So I figured that this would probably be a good year for us to go poke around and and see what kind of conversations that we have. And it's not that I want to be in Vegas again. We were just having a wild time for the GSE expo and I don't know if my body can handle it again.

Matt Weitzel: 54:57

So uh we've this will be a little toned down version of that I guess so I think it's going to wild time yeah I haven't seen your expense report yet so we got we got MBAA and then I'm guessing you all will be at GHI America's in Panama next year. Yeah is that a good guess?

Devin Sinclair: 55:13

Yep we will definitely be in Panama we'll also be in Amsterdam oh you're going to you're going to the GHI annual conference in Amsterdam and then you've got you've got one in LA some coming up the the West Coast electrification conference is coming up as well I'll be attending that listening to to everybody speak. I won't be on a panel myself well that's a miss. Yeah you know what I mean I'll have to contact somebody about that but yeah that's okay. You know the thing about being on a panel is they can't edit sections of it out. Yeah exactly they can't stop you from some from saying the right he did ask if he could be on a panel and they said we heard they said why don't you warm up with the GSE podcast there we go we'll see how that goes.

Matt Weitzel: 55:56

Yeah exactly so all right well thank you all so much for for coming down I appreciate it. This has been Todd and Matt and Devin for the GSE podcast thanks a lot guys thank you thank you for tuning in to this episode of the GSE podcast we hope you found it informative and engaging. If this episode resonated with you please share it with your colleagues and peers in the ground support equipment community your support is invaluable to us. We'd appreciate if you could take a moment to rate and review our podcast. Your feedback not only encourages us but also helps expand our reach within the GSD community. Keep an eye out for more episodes as we continue to explore the dynamic world of ground operations, bring you the latest trends, insights and stories from the industry. Thank you for listening to the GSD Podcast. Until we meet again stay grounded and keep pushing forward